3sge/3sgte short block differences?

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3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Luke2152 » 07/01/19 8:22

I have heard that the 3sge and 3sgte bottem end is virtually identical. The exceptions I'm aware of are the different pistons on the turbo motor and the lack piston oil squirters on the 3sge. Can anyone confirm if there are any other differences?

Why am I asking? Well I'm thinking of rebuilding a short block with forged rods and pistons taking my time doing it and then swapping my 3sgte head onto it when finished. If I'm going to be stripping and machining it anyway it would make sense to use a cheap readily available 3sge. The lack of oil squirters shouldn't be a problem with a decent forged piston (indeed some people believe them to be harmful due to thermal shock though I wouldn't go that far).



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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Protok » 07/01/19 12:51

Seems like you got it right though I have seen quite a few 3S-GEs with piston oil squirters.
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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by SonicSW20 » 07/01/19 13:10

My Gen3 3SGE had oil squirters. Perhaps there are some years / markets that don't, or perhaps the Celica 3SGE doesn't or something like that - refer to the parts cat.

NA block does not have the oil feed for the turbo drilled out. NA sump (for Gen3) has the casting for the oil return, but it's not drilled out.

Rods and crank are the same.

On the Gen 3, even the head is the same casting. Easier to just use a Gen3 Turbo head if you have one already though. Gen2 is different due to the TVIS.

Edit: Removed incorrect statement, see my next post.
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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by SonicSW20 » 07/01/19 13:19

As I don't like to give a half answer... it depends on the market. All links below are for 3SGE.

European market:

Rev1 (Gen2 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/1990/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

Rev2 (Gen2 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/1992/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

Rev3 - (Gen3 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/1994/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

Rev4 (Gen3 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/1996/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

Rev5 (Gen3 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/1998/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

Japan market:

Rev1 (Gen2 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/jp/1990/mr ... nder-block - NO oil squirters listed.

Rev2 (Gen2 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/jp/1992/mr ... nder-block - NO oil squirters listed.

Rev3 (Gen3 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/jp/1994/mr ... nder-block - oil squirters listed.

Rev4 (Gen3 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/jp/1996/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

Rev5 (Gen4 engine) - http://japan-parts.eu/toyota/jp/1998/mr ... lock#15708 - oil squirters listed.

So the TL;DR - All UK market 3SGE's found in an MR2 have oil squirters. Japan market 3SGE's from an MR2 have them from Revision 3 (Gen 3 engine) onwards, which is end of 1993 to end of production.
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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Luke2152 » 08/01/19 6:59

Good answers - you know your engines! I have a rev 2 turbo head so does that mean it wont fit to a rev 3 block or just that the rev 2 and 3 heads have different design (well of course they do but is it compatible?).

I'll probably go looking for a rev 1/2 3sge in need of attention with a good block and crank.

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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by SonicSW20 » 08/01/19 12:14

I'm pretty sure you can mix and match, but I can't say for sure.
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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Luke2152 » 07/06/19 21:41

Well I now have have a gen 2 3sge block and gen 2 3sgte head. Time to get project kitchen build (I mean clean assembly area) started. Have some forged rods and pistons ready to drop in.

2 questions:
1. I've heard that the 3sge cams have a longer duration and lift which would aid a serious turbo build but can't find any specs. Anyone know what the numbers are?
2. Where can I take an oil feed for the turbo from. Is there a good place to tap into the block or should I tee into where the oil pressure sensor goes. Looking at the working 3sgte in my car I can't quite see where the oil line comes from.

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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by SonicSW20 » 10/06/19 9:17

Correct, the NA cams are a bit more aggressive. I think the Gen3 cams are a slightly different spec as well. On that subject, if you're swapping out the cams then convert to Gen3 shim under bucket or even shimless.

From a CelicaTech thread:

2. gen 3SGE (165ps):
In: 244deg, 8.5mm lift (timing 7/57)
Ex: 244deg, 8.5mm lift (timing 57/7)

2. gen 3SGTE (225ps):
In: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 8/48)
Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 56/0)

3. gen 3SGE A/T (170ps):
In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53)
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7)

3.gen 3SGE M/T (180ps):
In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65)
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7)

3.gen 3SGTE (245ps):
In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53)
Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 50/6)

Can't guarantee this is correct, but the staggered Gen3 cam profiles sounds familiar.

On a 3SGTE block, the oil feed comes from the back of the block, under the exhaust manifold. Number 1 in this image:

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Ignore number 2, the photo is borrowed from the internet and not annotated by me.
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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Absu » 29/06/19 22:20

2. Where can I take an oil feed for the turbo from. Is there a good place to tap into the block or should I tee into where the oil pressure sensor goes. Looking at the working 3sgte in my car I can't quite see where the oil line comes from.
Just get REV3 oil pump and two piece oil sump with strainer. Then use oil feed from oil filter housing, make custom oil feed pipe joint with banjo from Soarer,Supra VVTI oil feed pipe.That's will be best way and benefit from moving oil filter away from exhaust in REV2.


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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Luke2152 » 06/07/19 13:53

Now that is an interesting thought. Does the rev3 sump and oil pump bolt straight on?

I think though I'll stick with standard rev2 oiling system as I'm already acquiring quite the parts collection. I'm planning on using a kinugawa ball bearing turbo so shouldn't need a lot of oil flow.


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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Luke2152 » 14/07/19 0:22

For the record I have obtained a set of 3rd gen 3sge cams and they have an even more aggressive 10.05mm lift (inlet) 8.3mm lift (exhaust). Perhaps those numbers are the actual valve lift after clearances have been taken up.

I got a full set of shim under buckets with the cams. Is there a good method to figure out the needed shims before assembly. All I can think to do is assemble it with shims under random buckets, measure clearances, strip it down again, swap shims to match clearances and buy additional shims for the ones that need them, then assemble and recheck. Which is ok but a bit of double handling!


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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Absu » 14/07/19 1:10

Hi,

you will need to install them first,then check the clearance and write them down in order.Just download the manual to keep you right.
https://www.gtfour.ch/info/buecher/st20 ... rm398e.pdf

If you have rev2 then you need valve retainers as well for conversion as rev2 and rev3 are different.

What numbers you've got on camshafts? Should be -88362

Thanks


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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Luke2152 » 14/07/19 3:21

88460 on the inlet and 88362 on exhaust. By valve retainer I assume you mean the round disc on top of the spring and not the collets that sit in the valve?

I didn't know about the difference there so thanks for pointing it out! More stuff to buy... :(
Oh well its a big budget build on a modest budget but I'm not cutting corners.


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Re: 3sge/3sgte short block differences?

Post by Absu » 14/07/19 13:54

Luke2152 wrote: ↑
14/07/19 3:21
88460 on the inlet and 88362 on exhaust. By valve retainer I assume you mean the round disc on top of the spring and not the collets that sit in the valve?

I didn't know about the difference there so thanks for pointing it out! More stuff to buy... :(
Oh well its a big budget build on a modest budget but I'm not cutting corners.
Hi, the one with the number 88460 I've only seen on rev3 3sge the rest is 88362 is on turbo models rev1 2 and3 both exhaust and inlet.

Yes is the round bit that sits on the top of the spring. I've attached the pictures so you can see the difference. Also valves and spring worth to check ..Rev2 and Rev3 valve are different,Rev2 valves are longer so is the valve springs. I've used REV3 2 valves in Rev2 head but have to use thickest shims available from Toyota to obtain specified clearance. Rev2 valves discontinued. Rev3 exhaust and intake valve springs have different parts numbers and paint marks on the top of the springs red and green but they have been superseded now they are all with red paint mark. I've got plenty of rev3 valves springs cups and I would happily swap them for rev2 if you want. Personally I think is bad idea in Rev3 to have shims under the bucket as to adjust and replace them requires removing the camshafts and disturb the T.belt.

Hope this helps.

Thanks
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