15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

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shinny
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by shinny »

The thing is, the wheels should have recesses and we know the spacers have tapered holes. If you put on the spacers such that the studs go through the tapered holes, that means there's very little metal-on-metal contact mating your wheel to the spacer! The flat surface on the wheel is against the empty space of the taper and the flat surface on the spacer is against the recess on the wheel.

That idea make me go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs


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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by jimGTS »

/\
which is why i was questioning that fitment idea.

i would try and use the spacers how they are designed.
studs through holes, bolt down.
bolt wheel to spacer studs.
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by MR2Jay »

Makes perfect sense.....

Ok, I'll bolt one on as intended tonight and make a comparison between the extended stud and the new ones.... That should give me a better idea about how this will work.

Once the wheels come back, I'll then see how many turns it takes to bolt them to just the spacer (as a comparison length wise).... If it's all good, then I'll knock through the secondary Studs and work from there :th:
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by baileydom »

Why not just return those and buy a set of slip on 15mm spacers with extended studs?
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by MR2Jay »

Because these ones have a perfect centre core diameter as well as the right pcd.

For the sake of the hassle messing about, it would be easier to knock the extra Studs out... Job done

I've already got extended Studs fitted to mount the NS2's :th:
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by jimi »

baileydom wrote: I've heard many times people saying that bolt through are better than bolt on
Personally I've always worked on the opposite principle ;) shorter bolts are better :th:
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by shinny »

MR2Jay wrote:Because these ones have a perfect centre core diameter as well as the right pcd.
They're perfect other than the fact you've got to use them a completely different way to that intended? :facepalm:

I can't believe you can't find the right slip-on spacer, mate...
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by shinny »

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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by MR2Jay »

Never said I couldn't find them :no:

My situation is that I have these here and considering how much the unplanned wheel refurbish and new tyres are costing, I can't afford to buy again :no: I've run out of cash for the moment :no:

As it stands, I don't even know if this will work, leaving enough to bolt the wheels on properly. At least with what I have, I have a couple of options I can try.

By knocking out the Studs, they become slip on anyhow so it is a case of being inventive with what I have. However, should there not be enough thread to mount the wheels safely, at least I then have the option of going back to stock Studs and using these as intended.
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by shinny »

MR2Jay wrote:I then have the option of going back to stock Studs and using these as intended.
Surely that's the best solution to begin with! Everything being used as it's intended to be... :th:

Why bodge something because of a modification that's now getting in the way, when you could just do it right the first time? ;)
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by MR2Jay »

Because I'm trying to keep the option of being able to run the NS2's as well....

Popping out a few Studs is hardly a bodge. All its doing is effectively turning them into slip on spacers.
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by shinny »

MR2Jay wrote:Because I'm trying to keep the option of being able to run the NS2's as well....

Popping out a few Studs is hardly a bodge. All its doing is effectively turning them into slip on spacers.
Pffft... stop being greedy with wheels! (Says the man with 4 sets of MR2 wheels and currently looking for a fifth)
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by GazRev1Tubby »

On an m12 x 1.5 stud, you need 8 full turns of the nut, for correct clamping force.

You basically divide the stud width, by the thread pitch.

You won't know until you offer one up, it'll be trial and error.

If it was me, I'd ditch the bolt on spacers, and use proper hubcentric slip ons, with extended wheel studs.

I've just put 63mm studs on the supra, with 15mm slip ons, and have full wheel nut engagement, meaning circa 20mm of thread.

With bolts ons, you're relying on the strength of the aluminium, that is probably only 10mm thick when you allow for the recess for the studs head to sit in. This could easily become very weak with fatigue, or through shock loading in the event of a kerb or pot hole incident.

At least with extended studs in the stock hubs, they're pulled through steel
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Re: 15mm Hubcentric wheel spacer fitment

Post by TonyleFrog »

chris wrote:
MR2Jay wrote:If you had 1 1/2 turns on a 10mm spacer and stock Studs then my spacers at 15mm (5mm thicker) but 11mm longer Studs, that should, in theory, give me the 1 1/2 turns I've got plus an additional 6mm of thread :th:
So, 1.5 turns give a bolt engagement length (B.E.L.) of 2.25mm on a 1.5mm pitch thread (MR2 stud is M12 x 1.5)... your extra 6mm of thread will add another 4 turns, thus giving you 5.5 turns in total on the stud... is that enough? I'm not sure? ...after all, that's only a B.E.L. of 8.25mm
:no: Wholly insufficient! :shocked:

I'm quite surprised that it has taken this long to mention the formula for calculating B.E.L. It's very simple and exactly as Gaz has stated.

The minimum thread engagement must be equal to the thread diameter of the wheel stud. Example: M12 x 1.5 nut requires a minimum of 12mm (.472”) of thread engagement - http://mcgard.com/index.php/customer-se ... ionremoval
The number of turns is determined by the thread pitch - in this case 1.5mm. So the formula is simple division (giving 8 turns) and is the same for any combination of stud dia/pitch.

Note that this is a minimum. If you intend to do a track day using your road car, it is worth knowing that most motor sport regs mandate 1.5 x the thread diameter (see 5.3.9 here - http://www.btrda.com/images/uploaded/75_6953863.pdf) so it would be a wise move to adopt the same criteria. The corresponding numbers now come in at 18mm and 1.5mm: so the number of turns increases to 12.

Those who are interested in the technical aspects have a look at this:
https://www.fastenal.com/en/78/screw-thread-design
Bear in mind that it is a US site hence the emphasis on the Unified Screw Thread System which is designated in TPI (threads per inch) rather than pitch as used by the metric system. However the basic principles remain the same.

I also recommend reading Carroll Smith's book "Screw to Win," (it's actual title is the rather more prosaic Nuts Bolts Fasteners And Plumbing Handbook) wherein this topic is included.
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performan ... g-handbook

Correct stud length is vital. Particularly so if you are using closed end tuner nuts because you could inadvertently end up with the nut binding before full engagement has taken place.
shinny wrote:
MR2Jay wrote:I then have the option of going back to stock Studs and using these as intended.
Surely that's the best solution to begin with! Everything being used as it's intended to be... :th:

Why bodge something because of a modification that's now getting in the way, when you could just do it right the first time? ;)
^^This^^

Either use the spacers in the way they are designed to be or go for the ones shinny linked to earlier. He has already pointed out why the proposal to use longer studs through the holes which secure the spacers to the hub is very unwise. The wheel seats will not be resting on solid metal but thin air!

Have a look at this vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNZhLb_wWhk - and you will see what I am driving at. When the lug nuts are tightened onto the tapered seats there is a risk of the latter distorting, especially if an air gun is used by one of those fast fit places. The eventual outcome can be a wheel centre failure. Not ideal if you're tanking along at 70mph!

Excuse the dreadful pun but reinventing the wheel is never a sensible idea.

I see from his project thread that Jay had previously cut down one set of studs. This is very bad practice and I urge people not to do it. It has two deleterious effects. Firstly you are destroying the zinc coating (and thereby exposing the stud material to corrosion as Jay found out) but secondly all wheel studs have a tapered lead in to the external thread.
Image

By removing this taper, not only will it make it more difficult to seat the nut but the risk of cross threading is greatly increased.
shinny wrote:
MR2Jay wrote:Because I'm trying to keep the option of being able to run the NS2's as well....

Popping out a few Studs is hardly a bodge. All its doing is effectively turning them into slip on spacers.
Pffft... stop being greedy with wheels! (Says the man with 4 sets of MR2 wheels and currently looking for a fifth)
Is that all? :laughing
You need to check Dom's post here - http://www.mr2oc.co.uk/forums/38/163737.html

@ Jay: whatever terminology you choose it's a very unsound engineering solution for the reason I have already given.
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